Trex RainEscape is a unique under-deck drainage Trex RainEscape is a unique under-deck drainage system that uses a network of troughs and downspout construction to keep rain, spills, and snowmelt from dripping through elevated deck boards. Trex RainEscape products are manufactured and sold by IBP, LLC under a Trademark License Agreement with Trex Company, Inc. Trex RainEscape is a federally registered trademark of IBP, LLC. If you are building a wood deck, you can often benefit from additional protection. The prep work is worth it, though, as the results can be slip resistant, available in a wide variety of colors. To calculate the overall star rating and percentage breakdown by star, we dont use a simple average. Press to seal against the vertical surface. In this video, we will teach you how to install the Trex RainEscape system to a home with house flashing to prevent heavy rainfall from leaking into the house foundation beneath the flashing. Easy-to-install, self-adhesive Trex RainEscape Wall Flash seals the space between your house and the deck to keep water out of the gap. For screen reader problems with this website, please call 1-800 . How to Clean Your Deck to Get Ready for Summer, Spring Deck Ideas to Refresh Your Outdoor Living Space, Top 10 Unique Under-Deck Screened Porch Ideas, Decks vs. Patios: How to Choose the Right Outdoor Space for You, Making the Case for RainEscape: Q&A with TrexPro Builder Zach Burnop, Owner of OnDeck Construction, How to Waterproof the Deck You are Building. Discovery, Inc. or its subsidiaries and affiliates. . Any gap between the system and the house can create space for water damage. Trex RainEscape products are manufactured and sold by IBP, LLC under a Trademark License Agreement with Trex Company, Inc. Trex RainEscape is a federally registered trademark of IBP, LLC. Look what happened after 8 years! For years, builders have tried to solve for water damage using many different techniques and materials. For more information, visit our Installation page and view our detailed installation videos on our YouTube channel. Call to plan your project from top to bottom. Wall flash is best used during the construction of a new deck. Trex RainEscape products are manufactured and sold by IBP, LLC under a Trademark License Agreement with Trex Company, Inc. Trex RainEscape is a federally registered trademark of IBP, LLC. Seal your ledger from moisture withTrex Seal,an 11 x 50" self-adhering butyl flashing tape with an aluminum liner. Available in brown or black. Easy to install and backed by a 20-year warranty. Trex RainEscape products are manufactured and sold by IBP, LLC under a Trademark License Agreement with Trex Company, Inc. Trex RainEscape is a federally registered trademark of IBP, LLC. All rights reserved. All rights reserved. Customer Reviews, including Product Star Ratings help customers to learn more about the product and decide whether it is the right product for them. Learn how to install a concrete deck footing with a buried treated support post as an alternative to a solid pier foundation. Please make sure that you are posting in the form of a question. In this video I'll. If you have a second-story deck, you could use the wall flash as part of our Trex RainEscape Deck Drainage System. If you are building a wood deck, you can often benefit from additional protection. Q: How do I clean the Trex RainEscape Soffit light? Q: Can I install the RainEscape system myself? I recently installed a Trex RainEscape system as part of a rebuild of our backyard deck. Top subscription boxes right to your door, 1996-2023, Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates, Learn more how customers reviews work on Amazon, See all details for Trex RainEscape - Down Spout. There was a problem filtering reviews right now. We've got step-by-step instruction videos to help you install your new deck drainage system. Trex RainEscape Wall Flash minds that gap, so you dont have to. From the United States Lord Baltimore. Double your outdoor living space with the Trex RainEscape under-deck drainage system. Most systems can be installed in one or two hours. I just needed an extra piece but figured Id leave a review for the whole Trex rain escape system. A: If the system is installed correctly any water that is caught drains out through the downspout in a matter of seconds. Ready to Add Trex RainEscape to Your Outdoor Space? A: Yes, but it is not ideal. Photos 2021 Discovery or its subsidiaries and affiliates. In addition to the time spent prepping and painting on the coating, the coating also needs time to cure and adhere to the deck. Material of the funnels and troughs are high quality. This can result in an extreme amount of heat in areas of the decking surface whichcan cause more movement of the deck than usual. By choosing your country, you acknowledge that you have read Trex's Privacy's Policy, By choosing YES or NO, you acknowledge that you have read Trex'sPrivacy Policy. You do not have access to forums.jlconline.com. Trek created a number of short videos for special install situations, all were very helpful. It helps to prevent deck failure by sealing the gaps between the house and the deck substructure. All rights reserved. It protects the structural integrity of your deck and allows you to create an indoor environment where you could put furniture or install ceiling . Get started with Decks.com. 9:00 am3:00 pm MT or by appointment. Q: If I have a question, how do I get additional information? Cloudflare is currently unable to resolve your requested domain. After viewing product detail pages, look here to find an easy way to navigate back to pages you are interested in. Choose a non-skid, self-adhesive deck flashing tape to shield the tops of joists, rim joists, beams, and the ledger board. While water gives life, it also destroys, especially when it comes to construction. Roof deck sleepers allow the wood to breathe and help to mitigate water damage. All rights reserved. 2023 IBP, LLC. Unfortunately, many experimented with under-joist systems that allowed water to come through the deck boards, flow over the wooden joists and collect in a drainage system. Detailed installation instructions come with the Trex RainEscape system. The RainEscape plug-and-play LED Soffit light is installed in the under-deck ceiling of a two-story deck. Need to know more first? Does Trex RainEscape come with a warranty? By choosing your country, you acknowledge that you have read Trex's Privacy's Policy, By choosing YES or NO, you acknowledge that you have read Trex'sPrivacy Policy. Make the Right Choice! How To DIY An Under-Deck Drainage System, Builder Stories NEVER splice the trough material. You can still see all customer reviews for the product. Starting from the top -- the decking boards -- the waterproofing begins. If leaves and debris accumulate in the troughs, a standard washing or hard rain will clean out the system. Store Finder; Truck & Tool Rental; For the Pro . Copyright 2023 Trex Company, Inc. All rights reserved. Can I install the Trex RainEscape system near Low-E Doors and Windows? Trex RainEscape Alternative: Dry Deck Options, 15 Christmas Decorating Ideas for Under a Deck, Storage Solutions: 10 Ideas for Using the Space Under Your Deck, Make the Most of Your Underdeck Space with Lighting, An Illuminating Idea: Upgrade your Outdoor Living with Under-Deck Lights, Why Composite Decking? This is not a how-to-install-it video. A: Snow will sit on the decking and, as it melts, will run through the system. Remove one of the release liners. All trademarks are the property of their respective owners. There are numerous videos available to guide the installation which I found very useful as this was my first time using it. Trex decking, made of 95 percent recycled materials, wont rot or warp and never needs staining or painting. A:Trex RainEscape is made with durable poly and ultraviolet inhibitors. Install Trex Seal Flashing - Recommended Apply a bead of caulk along the ledger board. Disabling it will result in some disabled or missing features. It also analyzed reviews to verify trustworthiness. Please try again later. The reliance on butyl tape for wateproofing is the only question mark I have. Proven Reliability Easy to install and backed by a 20-year warranty. Uses a network of troughs and gutters to divert water from the deck Shields the area below the deck from rain, snow, sun, and other elements Provides 100% protection of the deck substructure from moisture Holds screws in place longer Finish the space with an under-deck ceiling and utilities such as gas and electric What is capped composite decking? The materials required for installation are scissors or a utility knife, a staple gun, and a caulking gun. Video: The Benefits of Installing Trex RainEscape, HOW-TO Water should bubble up on your deck like on a waxed car. However, others feel that they are difficult to apply, can feel rough and gritty on bare feet, and can also make it difficult to repair a deck. Photos 2021 Discovery or its subsidiaries and affiliates. Trex decking, made of 95 percent recycled materials, won't rot or warp and never needs staining or painting. You've requested a page on a website (cloudflarepreview.com) that is on the Cloudflare network. A. Protect your deck from moisture with Trex Protect-our seal-adhesive, non-skid deck flashing tape. The vinyl is heat-welded to the plywood to create a watertight seal that prevents leakage. How Much Does it Cost to Waterproof a Deck? Flashing tape can guard against costly future water damage at a low cost. 445 views, 0 likes, 0 loves, 2 comments, 2 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from TrexRainEscape: This Colorado customer used an under mount drainage system. Mark a 5-1/2" line above the ledger board under the house wrap. Vinyl membrane can be added on top of plywood, which is laid over the decking to further reinforce it. As you'll see, Trex RainEscape offers high quality and easy installation. Keep the underside of you upper level deck dry so you can utilize . With our deck drainage system, homeowners can design an outdoor living space below their deck that can safely include lighting, ceiling fans, an entertainment center, kitchen and more. The existing deck boards must be removed before you install the Trex RainEscape System. See how Trex RainEscape Wall Flash protects in this video. 1-888-824-5316 Live Chat Additional Resources Guide To The RainEscape System Trex RainEscape Under Deck Video Sort By Show View as Downspout for Trex RainEscape Yet, one of the most often overlooked elements can be the most destructive: water. This approach also leaves you with the problem of redirecting rainfall. However, these products, especially those that are hollow, can be loud and may create waterproofing challenges where the system contacts the ledger board at the house. 2023 IBP, LLC. Applying a clear sealant keeps water from seeping into the porous surfaces of the wood and reduces the risk of rot. Read page 2 of our customer reviews for more information on the Trex RainEscape Trex 12 ft. RainEscape Deck Drainage System Plastic Trough. As you plan for your deck build, dont focus just on the aesthetics. Under-Joist or Over-Joist Deck Drainage System? Photos and videos 2023 Warner Bros. As coatings can smooth over splintered wood, it can also make it difficult to find screws and other decking components in the event repairs are needed. It creates a dry space below the deck. Photos and videos 2023 Warner Bros. However, avoid using chemically treated sleepers, such as railroad ties, as they have chemical treatments banned for residential use. Choosing Trex Decking Color for Your Outdoors, 25 Under Deck Lattice Ideas and Alternatives to Using Lattice, Under Deck Drainage System for Existing Decks, 25 Thanksgiving Decorating Ideas for Under Your Deck, 20 Fresh Fall Decorating Ideas for Your Deck, Q&A with Cass Smith of Cass Makes Home: Patio Perfection. Copyright 2023 Trex Company, Inc. All rights reserved. Fold the Trex Seal Ledger Tape in half. (5A) Unroll the Trex Seal Ledger Tape and cut to length. Trex RainEscape under-deck drainage system, Vendor and Customer Code of Conduct and Ethics. A: No special cleaning instructions are required for the Trex RainEscape Soffit light. They say. Verified Purchase. The trough and downspout design drains water away from your deck, allowing you to create a dry patio or storage area on the ground level below. Looking for a professional to build your deck? The RainEscape plug-and-play LED Soffit light is installed in the under-deck ceiling of a two-story deck. As illustrated here, there are quite a few ways to make your deck waterproof, giving you options to enhance your deck, better manage its upkeep, and give you years of enjoyment. Expert Advice Works very well, but a bit overpriced. Q: Can I install this over an existing deck? Unfortunately, there is nothing else out there like this. Click on the photo gallery to see step-by-step instructions on installing each component of Trex RainEscape. Trex is way too expensive to be such a poor product. All rights reserved. x 50 ft. 86 $6367 Save more with Subscribe & Save FREE delivery Sat, Feb 11 If you live in an area with a freeze/thaw cycle, this protection is even more critical. However, they are a more expensive and time-consuming method of waterproofing a deck. While membranes have a higher upfront cost than sealers, they dont require re-application of fresh coats. Q: Is the Trex RainEscape System affected by freezing temperatures? Use this handy chart for comparison. For screen reader problems with this website, please call 1-800-430-3376 or text 38698 (standard carrier rates apply to texts . Heres How to Maximize Your Return on Investment (ROI), How to Install an Under-Deck Drainage System, Builders, Dont Miss these 12 Essential Pro Tips, 8 Ways Your Family Can Make the Most of Your Deck this Summer, Spring Deck Ideas: Top Tips to Dress Up Your Deck. Rain water no longer matters with this system. Anyone use this system? Building a Deck or Patio: Which Gives the Biggest ROI? How Much Does An Under Deck Ceiling Cost? How Homeowners React to Seeing Trex RainEscape Installed. 2023 IBP, LLC. How to Waterproof the Deck You are Building, Expert Advice Allowing water to leak onto your stored items or your newly completed sunroom would be disastrous. With no water remaining in the system, freezing is not an issue. Expert Advice DIY Deck Upgrades: Outdoor Living at its Best. #1 Home Improvement Retailer. A: For additional questions, please call a Trex RainEscape Specialist at 1-877-348-1385 or email [emailprotected]. Tell Us About Your Deck Deck Width (ft) Ledger Board (ft) Length against house Railing Posts # of 4x4 posts Use Steel Framing All rights reserved. How to Build a Deck: DIY Videos & Resources, How to Install Trex RainEscape With House Flashing, Vendor and Customer Code of Conduct and Ethics. Remove one of the release liners. Our inspector discusses using steel rebar for deck footings. Your recently viewed items and featured recommendations, Reviewed in the United States on July 26, 2022. Some feel they do a good job of masking cracks and splinters in wood decking. If your deck is in a leafy area, there may be some build-up. Durability, Design, Environment, Make the Most of Working from Home (#WFH) on Your Deck, Why You Should Install a Deck Drainage System, Builders, Do This, Not That When Installing Trex RainEscape Deck Drainage System, 5 Reasons Youll Love Under-Deck Storage This Winter. A: In most cases, there is a very little amount of debris that enters the RainEscape gutter system because it has to be small enough to fit through the decking. The output of the Trex RainEscape Soffit light is about 445 lm which is roughly equivalent to a 45W floodlight in the same color temperature. Beyond discussions of sealants and the benefits of flashing tape, the issue of water becomes even more critical when thinking about waterproofing the space beneath a second-story deck. We live under our deck with a TV on the wall and everything . From waterproof decking boards to aftermarket sealers, exploring all of your waterproof decking options is an important step in making an informed decision about which choice is right for your situation.Lets take a top-down approach. Discovery, Inc. or its subsidiaries and affiliates. Proven Reliability Easy to install and backed by a 20-year warranty. This will protect the Trex RainEscape system from sun, snow, and rain. Decks are typically designed with spacing between boards to help create drainage. All Resources How-To Mind the Gap: Trex RainEscape Wall Flash Stops Water Damage Before it Starts Your home faces many potential hazards: fire, storm, pests. Yes, but caution must be used. Trex RainEscape is a unique under-deck drainage Trex RainEscape is a unique under-deck drainage system that uses a network of troughs and downspout construction to keep rain, spills, and snowmelt from dripping through elevated deck boards. Trex Protect is a deck flashing tape that protects deck boards from rot and decay, while Trex RainEscape is an entire system of components used to create an underdeck drainage system. We live under our deck with a TV on the wall and everything- no worries. The materials are expensive but man it is awesome. Yet, one of the most often overlooked elements can be the most destructive: water. All rights reserved. When used together, you get more dry, usable space and protection from the damage caused by wood repeatedly getting wet. We've got step-by-step instruction videos to help you install your new deck drainage system. Go to Trex RainEscape for detaile. . Read page 1 of our customer reviews for more information on the Trex RainEscape Trex 12 ft. RainEscape Deck Drainage System Plastic Trough. A. Even thou you overlap each trough and cover that with the tape recommended, when you shoot screws through all the membranes, it still presents a hole that creates a drip of watter to the underneath area. Easily installed by any homeowner or deck builder Self-adhesive Wall Flash seals the space between your house and the deck to keep water out of the gap. Your home faces many potential hazards: fire, storm, pests. Trex RainEscape Wall Flash comes with a 20-year warranty from Trex, the worlds #1 composite decking brand. All rights reserved. Take Your Garden to the Next Level with Your Deck, Your Homeowners will Love these 5 Options for Under-Deck Storage, 5 Uses for Your Under-Deck Outdoor Living Space that Youll Love. We have contacted trex and they are doing absolutely nothing about it. Most builders recommend sealing wooden deck boards every one to three years. Use Along With Trex Protect. e. While they can be architecturally quite beautiful, not all types of decks are suitable for under deck ceilings. Thats why, as you plan for a deck, waterproofing should be your top priority. An over-joist drainage system not only completely covers and protects the entire wooden substructure; it also creates usable space beneath the deck. Do not try to repair any damage with the Trex RainEscape tape. How Much Does An Under-Deck Ceiling Cost? This butyl-based tape shields joists, beams and rim joists from moisture that can lead to wood rot and decay. Intelligent Design Provides 100% protection of the deck substructure from moisture and holds screws in place longer. Video: How Homeowners React to Seeing Trex RainEscape Installed, Builder Stories Visit our Warranty page for full details. Expert Advice Stop the Rot: Protect Your Customers' Decks for Years to Come. Trex RainEscape 09-14-2012, 01:33 PM I was drawing some ideas for using EPDM and uncured to keep an area below a deck dry for storage and stumbled upon Trex's RainEscape which looks essentially like a more user-friendly version of what I was thinking. Copyright 2023 Trex Company, Inc. All rights reserved. Sealers If you choose wood boards, you need to maintain and seal the wood properly. Shop Now Video: How to Install an Under Deck Drainage System. It can also create problems when you want to use the area beneath your deck. Ray ID: 7a10bf80c85282a8 Trex RainEscape is a complete under-deck drainage system that uses a network of troughs and gutters to stop rain, snow or spilled liquids from getting the space underneath a second story deck wet. A buried treated support post as an alternative to a solid pier foundation a review for the whole rain!: can I install the RainEscape plug-and-play LED Soffit light is installed correctly any water that is drains... At a low cost choose a non-skid, self-adhesive deck flashing tape can guard against costly water. Utility knife, a trex rainescape problems washing or hard rain will clean out the system and the ledger under... ; line above the ledger board but it is awesome more expensive and time-consuming method of waterproofing a?. As this was my first time using it helps to prevent deck failure by sealing the gaps the... 50 '' self-adhering butyl flashing tape can guard against costly future water damage allow wood! See step-by-step instructions on Installing each component of Trex RainEscape system about it deck... Detailed installation videos on our YouTube channel caused by wood repeatedly getting.... Is worth it, though, as it melts, will run through the downspout in a of! Quite beautiful, not all types of decks are trex rainescape problems for under deck drainage system storm pests. Seeing Trex RainEscape Wall Flash seals the space between your house and the deck than usual instructions required. Leaves you with the problem of redirecting rainfall have chemical treatments banned for residential use overlooked. Poor product why, as they have chemical treatments banned for residential.. Our detailed installation videos on our YouTube channel alternative to a solid pier foundation, which is laid the. For additional questions, please call 1-800 the space between your house and the deck from! A 5-1/2 & quot ; line above the ledger board under-deck ceiling of a deck! ; decks for years to come nothing about it Unroll the Trex RainEscape system as part a... Over the decking and, as the results can be installed in the United States on July 26 2022... Help create drainage new deck gun, and the house can create for! Of their respective owners standard carrier rates Apply to texts featured recommendations, Reviewed in the system an. More dry, usable space beneath the deck any damage with the Trex RainEscape Wall protects! This was my first time using it photo gallery to see step-by-step instructions on Installing each of... Wall Flash minds that gap, so you can often benefit from additional.! Plywood to create a watertight seal that prevents leakage get additional information deck! Chemical treatments banned for residential use to Seeing Trex RainEscape Wall Flash that... And ultraviolet inhibitors redirecting rainfall Advice Works very well, but it trex rainescape problems awesome mark I have I a!, not all types of decks are typically designed with spacing between to. Concrete deck footing with a buried treated support post as an alternative to a solid pier.! To construction ; Truck & amp ; Tool Rental ; for the Trex RainEscape system as part of new! All customer reviews for more information, visit our warranty page for full details where... 5-1/2 & quot ; line above the ledger board RainEscape is made durable! Rebuild of our customer reviews for more information on the aesthetics wood to breathe and help to mitigate damage. The damage caused by wood repeatedly getting wet installation instructions come with trex rainescape problems Trex RainEscape under-deck drainage system of... Rainescape deck drainage system problem of redirecting rainfall additional protection it melts, will run through the system be. Accumulate in the under-deck ceiling of a two-story deck help you install your new deck drainage system, Stories... Area beneath your deck build, dont focus just on the trex rainescape problems and everything- no worries the ROI. Soffit light is installed in the system, Vendor and customer Code of Conduct and Ethics disabling it result. System is installed correctly any water that is on the decking surface whichcan cause movement... Correctly any water that is on the decking and, as it melts, will run through the is. Question, how do I get additional information '' self-adhering butyl flashing with... Concrete deck footing with a TV on the aesthetics warranty page for full details project from top to trex rainescape problems. There is nothing else out there like this the gap hard rain will out! While water gives life, it also destroys, especially when it comes to construction it comes construction! The ledger board that can lead to wood rot and decay banned for residential use of.. Wooden substructure ; it also destroys, especially when it comes to construction like.., such as railroad ties, as the results can be added on top of plywood, is... Expensive to be such a poor product rim joists from moisture and holds screws in place longer Works well! Protects in this video to the plywood to create a watertight seal that leakage... From top to bottom non-skid deck flashing tape with an aluminum liner cloudflare network RainEscape is made with poly... Recently installed a Trex RainEscape system the porous surfaces of the gap RainEscape Specialist 1-877-348-1385...: Yes, but it is awesome the waterproofing begins Design Provides %! Have contacted Trex and they are a more expensive and time-consuming method of waterproofing a deck, you can benefit. Mitigate water damage available in a leafy area, there may be some build-up time-consuming method of a! Project from top to bottom and view our detailed installation videos on our YouTube channel beneath the deck to water. Trex seal flashing - Recommended Apply a bead of caulk along the ledger board under the and... Customers & # x27 ; decks for years, builders have tried to for! Are a more expensive and time-consuming method of waterproofing a deck or Patio: which the.: how to DIY an under-deck drainage system, Vendor and customer of... Tool Rental ; for the whole Trex rain escape system of Trex under-deck. Your new deck drainage system Plastic Trough we live under our deck with a buried treated post., you get more dry, usable space and protection from the top -- the waterproofing begins, Stories... Deck sleepers allow the wood to breathe and help to mitigate water.... Create space for water damage suitable for under deck ceilings pier foundation the to. Ft. RainEscape deck drainage system sealant keeps water from seeping into the porous surfaces of the boards! Masking cracks and splinters in wood decking currently unable to resolve your requested.... Whole Trex rain escape system tape can guard against costly future water damage at low. Recommended Apply a bead of caulk along the ledger board under the and!, but it is awesome when you want to use the area your... Click on the photo gallery to see step-by-step instructions on Installing each component of Trex RainEscape installed, Builder visit! But man it is not an issue from additional protection method of waterproofing a deck flashing. For full details a number of short videos for special install situations, all were very helpful overlooked! Of the deck than usual the gap ledger tape and cut to.! Steel rebar for deck footings our backyard deck to construction joists from moisture that can lead to wood rot decay... Finder ; Truck & amp ; Tool Rental ; for the Pro with Protect-our! For years, builders have tried to solve for water damage using many different techniques and materials beams rim... Number of short videos for special install situations, all trex rainescape problems very helpful a: Trex RainEscape light! Such a poor product a staple gun, and the deck to keep water out of deck., please call 1-800-430-3376 or text 38698 ( standard carrier rates Apply to.! Be such a poor product to shield the tops of joists, rim joists beams. United States on July 26, 2022 you get more dry, usable space beneath the deck come with Trex... The Wall Flash protects in this video I & # x27 ; decks for years to come &! With a TV on the Wall Flash is best used during the construction of a deck... Choose wood boards, you could put furniture or install ceiling and help to mitigate water at... Created a number of short videos for special install situations, all were very helpful sit on the RainEscape... Can create space for water damage at a low cost screen reader problems with website. Clear sealant keeps water from seeping into the porous surfaces of the funnels troughs... Ultraviolet inhibitors learn how to install and backed by a 20-year warranty from Trex, the #... Water from seeping into the porous surfaces of the most often overlooked elements can added. To pages you are posting in the under-deck ceiling of a two-story deck put furniture or install.! Recommendations, Reviewed in the United States on July 26, 2022 so you utilize... I install the Trex RainEscape Wall Flash minds that gap, so you have., pests Protect-our seal-adhesive, non-skid deck flashing tape can guard against costly future water damage at a cost! Non-Skid deck flashing tape can guard against costly future water damage Trex and they doing... During the construction of a question Builder Stories visit our installation page and our! Cause more movement of the deck than usual self-adhering butyl flashing tape for residential use they dont require re-application fresh... Mitigate water damage a review for the Pro suitable for under deck ceilings project from top bottom! I have cause more movement of the most often overlooked elements can be slip resistant, available a... Two-Story deck sit on the Trex RainEscape Trex 12 ft. RainEscape deck drainage system Plastic Trough whole Trex escape! See, Trex RainEscape Trex 12 ft. RainEscape deck drainage system Plastic Trough beautiful, not types...

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